Unless a program like WB reaches the necessity point, it is unlikely it will be too popular. People aren't taught enough that they can change things up.
Lots of people don't know how to change the resolution, but also willing to bet they also don't even realize they can change the basic Luna theme to two other themes. The average PC user simply wants things to work. They don't care about looks or even organization.
I gag everytime I see someone else's screen and its full of icons on the desktop. To me that is a mess and not very useful. They just haven't been taught how to properly use their pc. Start menus also get very clogged with useless stuff, but again no one taught them now to use it.
I think some might love their pc more if they knew they could customize it. The message isn't getting out there.

agreeing with ghos to an extent. younger users who just play games seem to have the crowded, flashy desktops.. the developers need streamlined desktops with quick access to commands and navigation. but even by catching admin comments on 'what the community wants' (wink, karmagirl ), artwork has been created that isn't anything really different then what has already been done. there is still a need for the variety and some skinners are realizing this. for that i say customization is still on its way up. a lot more can yet be done. when everyone can log in and find exactly what the want, it will flatten out.

Ghos, I'm told "an untidy desk means an untidy mind".?

It 'shouldn't' be about supply and demand.....not unless your motivation is to simply be listed in a 'top skinners' table.

The parameters of the design 'brief' should NOT be 'lowest common denominator to give largest possible DL count', but 'I'll make it like this because I want one like it and there aren't any already that suit'.

Being an Architect for 30 years means I understand the difference between 'off the shelf' and 'tailor-made'.

The former is for lemmings...the latter is for actual individuals with the power of personal taste.

Skinners need to get off the freeways and into the backroads of creative thinking.

It is not impossible to still be ground-breaking with originality just because there are already a lot of skins out there....not for anyone with a brain and creativity.

Particularly with Windowblinds....stop rehashing the predictable Luna interface....leave that for the sad sacks who think StyleXP is actually any good....THEY don't have much option.....but YOU....you CAN think outside the square.

It is my opinion that the days are long gone where skinners were trying to be original, come up with new imaginative ways to have things look and feel.

It is possible that you have seen too many skins Paxx, you have become desensitized, and now you need a pick me up. A skinning version of Viagra that could serve a dual purpose of making desktop customization seem new again, while simultaneously bringing back the thrill of your first time would be just what the doctor order.

AR.....no...I think it's more about the true innovation and whacky diversity of the early skins....by early I mean pre-XP.

We have XP to thank for for skin popularity...but also to rue for mediocrity as everyone recolours the same old crap...

I think the challenge in being different is, most everthing that can be done has been done.
When I think specifically of Litestep which customized your entire desktop, even there there seems to be a lack of "uniqueness".
I don't have any quick answers unfortunatly.

Phil....same issue applies with LS....perhaps more accessibility via OTS leads to more 'ho-hum' mediocrity.

While things were truly 'geek-run' and people were ALL new to the concept...the boundaries were still yet to be tested.

An example would be an early theme of mine....5 or 6 years old....had 2 wharfs.....back before it was supported.  I simply ran two instances of the shell....a primary and a second to load wharf 2.

These days people just want LS with icons on the desktop....they may as well be running Exploder.....why bother?...

I think there is a natural limit on how different designs can be though....and that's because people need to learn any interface in order to use it effectively.

Since the Windows interface is the defacto standard (on PCs), then to keep any design easy to pick up and use quickly, it has to mirror the standard layout, functionality and graphical metaphors at least to an extent.

For instance, with WB it is possible to shift most design elements to the bottom, or side of a window, but few (if any?) designs do this because people will be fighting the interface all the time. There was a HandOfxyz fashion for a while with Kalidescope skins on the Mac back in '97 time which had the controls shifted to the side, which had a certain novelty value, but I wouldn't choose to use an interface like that on a daily basis now.

Any GUI design walks a path between style and functionality. As an example of how that can be done well though, we've become so used to the pseudo-3d visual metaphor that it's hard to imagine something else...one reason why I think Boxxi's isometric view skin in the GUIO submisions is so impressive as (forgive the pun....) it's thinking outside the box

An example would be an early theme of mine....5 or 6 years old....had 2 wharfs.....back before it was supported. I simply ran two instances of the shell....a primary and a second to load wharf 2.

you should have edited wharf.dll with a hex editor and replace every "wharf" with "vharf". then you would have had a second, independent module. of course all the settings in modules.ini and step.rc also should have used "vharf" for the second module.
i did that with chronos.dll a while ago, before label.dll supported timezones. done with three clicks and pretty comfortable when one is not familiar with compiling from the source (as i was at that time).

Since the Windows interface is the defacto standard (on PCs), then to keep any design easy to pick up and use quickly, it has to mirror the standard layout, functionality and graphical metaphors at least to an extent.

That's where you are wrong.

You'd be surprised just how quickly you can adapt to totally different button placement [for example].

Keeping things 'normal' is just people's fear of the different or confrontational....and it is a force of ennui that drags skinning into the doldrums.

People need to get out there and make STUPID insane skins....ones that require intuition to use...not the same blasted 3 buttons on the right, etc.

Like polling for 'features you'd like to see'...what's that all about?  Making sure you keep as many people happy as possible to snag the big DL numbers?

Forget downloads....they are irrelevant.

Just 1 person using your skin [because it is unique] and saying 'I like it...it is innovative and refreshing'....that's all that matters...the rest is for people with EGO deficiencies and an infantile need to be 'popular'.

jafo - I used to think the same about customization, but the novelty wore off. I played with all sorts of weird and wacky layouts and different button configs initially when I discovered skinning on a Mac, but these days I want something that I don't have to think about using, but which looks very cool. Since my hand/arm/muscle memory knows what to do to close a window, minimize it, drag it about the screen, (and these days) roll it up, then any design which deviates on those drives me nuts the first time I end up closing a window without saving something just because someone thought it was cool to switch the minimize and close buttons....

If all I was doing was playing with skins, then I'd love to mess with the most bizzarly layed out designs, but I have to work too...and when I'm working, the last thing I can aford is having to waste valuable thinking effort on trying to remember which anonymous button scattered around a window is the one I need to just minimze a window.

HOWEVER - I also agree that there is milage in some skins being done to push the envelope...I've posted here in the past on my keeness on this such as using big chunky frames because increased resolution and graphics speed makes this feasable....the first (and so far only) skin I've got here was my attempt to try something different - but I kept the buttons in the same place still

Interestingly, the skin I'm working on at the moment to try for the GUIO is just at the stage of pondering what to do with the buttons, and I've been toying with how to do something creative...any ideas to try I can "borrow"?

The best I came up with so far is based on noticing that you can make buttons appear base don clicking other buttons - so I thought a "combination lock" in order to close a window might be amusing (not serious!)

Oh...and I agree somewhat about downloads, though I've found it facinating to watch which of my efforts gets the better numbers. In a similar way, I put together some web pages with photos on many years ago and then "played" with different ways to promot the site with keywords and things on google and other search engines, and then I'd watch the hit counts over the next months and the search terms people had used to find the pages (using a nice free web counter)...I guess I just like studying people

moshi...yes...but back then I had no idea about how to edit dll's....though prior to then I'd 'edited' the XTreeGold startup screen in hex to 'personalise' it....

Sput....still, if someone actually creates a skin [that has odd placements] and actually stays with it as a default use there's no functionality loss.  Sure, if you flit around from one skin to another...then you can confuse yourself....but then if all the skins are essentially 'alike' why bother changing them at all?

Skinners who persist in churning out re-hashes of the same old skin [usually their most 'popular'] do so not to appeal to the masses [though that'll be their justification in their minds], but to boost their prominence in a 'Top Authors' list....be it here or any other site.

If they were actually honest about their motives they'd perhaps design for themselves first and for others second [purely incidental]...

Jafo - ahhh, but when I tried something "original" with my submission to the GUIO it was rejected on the basis of something I'd done different I will freely admit that I've now found ample other areas to improve that skin anyhow, and I'm awaiting a decision on if it'll be accepted for inclusion this now I've worked on it again, but what is wrong with white text on a white background on the start menu?

If a compact start menu is a good idea, then why does anyone need to see the text on the left either? .... I had thought the GUIO would be the ideal place to try something new and see if it floats with everyone out there, only to find that something has to get through moderation first which then could be seen to be stiffling inovation?

I'm not particularly serious, it's just a bee in my bonnet about the white on white as I was so chuffed when I thought of that, that when it was cited as a reason for rejection it was disappointing...